From jhogan@fbody.com  Fri Apr 19 16:16:36 2002
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From: "James Hogan" 
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Subject: [ma] this stinks - something is broken already
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I did get exhaust today, that's the good news (Thanks again for the help
Cliff!)

Bad news. I probably have at least 5 hours of running time at all rpms on
the jack stands. I took a few short cruises around the block here. Loaded it
up on Cliffs trailer this am. All with no problems at all. In fact, I
thought it was running really good and was so friggen happy about it.

Got to mufflex, took the car off of the trailer and then bam, something went
very wrong because I started to get some bad vibrations/rattling noise, just
not a good feeling.

I crossed my fingers and hoped it was just the exhaust flange rattling
around so Mufflex made me a nice little y-pipe (sorry no pics of it yet).
Started it back up, the noise is worse. Load it back on Cliff's trailer, I
start it up, he takes a look underneath AND...

Sure enough flexplate or something in that area is 100% f-ed. Wobbles around
something fierce.

I'm really friggen bummed to say the least, I honestly thought I'd be
driving it again this week but it looks like I'm about to start yanking the
400/gear vendor/exhaust/driveshaft and everything else instead :( Did I
mention I think I may go stick my head in a used toilet and cry? I swear to
you all, I have the absolute worst luck with EVERYTHING and ANYTHING I do
ever. I'm surprised I didn't break my shoelaces tying them this am but I
guess I have a few more hours for that to happen and complete my day.

SO I'll be skipping SLP day tomorrow - if anyone wants to swing by my place
to point fingers and laugh let me know, I'll be around.

BUT as some serious questions now.
1) I guess I have no choices other than to drop the whole tranny to get at
the flex plate right? I can see it for a visual inspection if I jack it up
but I don't know if that tells me much.
2) How do I know there is no damage to the converter/trans now? Or is it the
converter/trans that is f-ed?
3) what damage might the engine have?
4) can I be sure that it is just a flexplate problem?
5) did you know that I really suck?
6) where do I start on this fix?
7) what happens if the flexplate itself really is the problem? Do I just
stick another stock flexplate in and wait for that to break?
8) what damage might the trans have?
9) Who has the voodoo matchbox car and keeps doing this? I will beat your
ass to a pulp you stupid tool.
10) what about the rear main seal. There was some oil down there but not
much - I don't know if it really leaking yet or what? I guess if I replace
the flexplate I need to replace that too? My motor isn't f-ed is it? I'd
been clowning around saying when the motor goes I'll build a real motor but
I honestly hoped I got the season out of it. Where did I go wrong?

Well I'll be outside jacking the BATA back up, feel free to drop me a line
if you have any ideas, otherwise, feel free to sit back and get a good laugh
out of it, honestly, I did get a good chuckle out of the fact that something
is broken because I'd gone for a whole week thinking it was fine and should
have known better, afterall, nothing else worked right for me on the first
try. :( :(

Well either way, Thanks again to Cliff for giving me a tow out to Mufflex
and bigger thanks to the guys at Mufflex for building me a nice exhaust
setup, pretty low to the ground but really no worse than it was I guess.

- Jim "don't know enough bad words to fill in what I'm really thinking"
Hogan
http://jim.fbody.com/ - 98 Navy Blue REALLY BATA

From rick@skweezn-performance.com  Fri Apr 19 16:26:48 2002
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From: Rick 
Subject: Re: [ma] this stinks - something is broken already
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Damn dude................

Sorry to hear this... but to change the flexplate.. yep..gotta pull the 
tranny out...

the time I did break mine.. I could get a flash light up on the flexplate 
and "see" the cracks on the flexplate?

Does the vibration get worse as rpms go up?  Or smooth out??  With mine.. 
idling it would make all kinds of rackit.. but hit the revs and the sounds 
would disappear...

Rick

From jhogan@fbody.com  Fri Apr 19 16:42:50 2002
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Subject: Re: [ma] this stinks - something is broken already
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 16:44:47 -0400
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From: "Rick" 
> Does the vibration get worse as rpms go up?  Or smooth out??  With mine..
> idling it would make all kinds of rackit.. but hit the revs and the sounds
> would disappear...
> Rick

Well, its very strange, in fact, the more I think about, the more I wonder
if something in the trans broke?

At idle, it vibrates, but really not too bad. I've only tried it up to about
2K (just enough to get in around) and it seems to get A LOT worse as rpms go
up. What else is strange is that in reverse, it is REALLY REALLY REALLY
friggen bad. IN FACT, if I just press the trans-brake button (to go in
reverse) I hear the audible sound of bad vibes but I haven't been under the
car to actually see what happens when I hit the button for reverse. Could I
have somehow completely detroyed the trans or what?

I just jacked it up, I'm going to go peak under and see what I see or don't
see.

Is there any way for me to tell if the problem is on the engine side or the
trans side? Would the flexplate crack be obvious (separated from other parts
of itself) or the flexpalte could be totaled but I wouldn't know it
visually?

- Jim "I think I'm going to really start drinking heavily tonight, maybe
drugs too" Hogan
http://jim.fbody.com/ - 98 Navy Blue BATA

From aa4d@erols.com  Fri Apr 19 17:28:48 2002
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James,

Unbolt the TC and see if it vibrates. If it does, the TC or tranny is
screwed. Don't get to rev happy with the engine not loaded. ;)

-Alex

> Well, its very strange, in fact, the more I think about, the more I wonder
> if something in the trans broke?
> 
> At idle, it vibrates, but really not too bad. I've only tried it up to about
> 2K (just enough to get in around) and it seems to get A LOT worse as rpms go
> up. What else is strange is that in reverse, it is REALLY REALLY REALLY
> friggen bad. IN FACT, if I just press the trans-brake button (to go in
> reverse) I hear the audible sound of bad vibes but I haven't been under the
> car to actually see what happens when I hit the button for reverse. Could I
> have somehow completely detroyed the trans or what?
> 
> I just jacked it up, I'm going to go peak under and see what I see or don't
> see.
> 
> Is there any way for me to tell if the problem is on the engine side or the
> trans side? Would the flexplate crack be obvious (separated from other parts
> of itself) or the flexpalte could be totaled but I wouldn't know it
> visually?
> 
> - Jim "I think I'm going to really start drinking heavily tonight, maybe
> drugs too" Hogan

From skulte@skulte.com  Fri Apr 19 17:51:19 2002
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From: "Andris Skulte" 
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Subject: RE: [ma] this stinks - something is broken already
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 17:51:19 -0400
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> Sure enough flexplate or something in that area is 100% f-ed.
> Wobbles around
> something fierce.

Bummer :/

> I swear to
> you all, I have the absolute worst luck with EVERYTHING and ANYTHING I do
> ever. I'm surprised I didn't break my shoelaces tying them this am but I
> guess I have a few more hours for that to happen and complete my day.

There's always Velcro. That's pretty hard to Fook up.

> BUT as some serious questions now.
> 1) I guess I have no choices other than to drop the whole tranny to get at
> the flex plate right? I can see it for a visual inspection if I jack it up
> but I don't know if that tells me much.

You could rotate the engine while looking at the flexplate to see how much
it wobbles. Did you see it wobbling, or just felt it? In either case, it
sounds like the drivetrain has to come off.

> 2) How do I know there is no damage to the converter/trans now?
> Or is it the
> converter/trans that is f-ed?

Flexplates are usually fairly indestructible. Even if you lost the little
balance weight, it wouldn't cause such a huge imbalance at idle that you'd
think the works was ending.

> 3) what damage might the engine have?

Don't think about that till you can rule it out.

> 5) did you know that I really suck?

Nope.

> 6) where do I start on this fix?

Visually I.D what is happening. If it's an open deck trailer, have someone
under the car while you rotate the engine by hand, or with the starter to
see if anything visible is apparent (other than a broken shoelace!) I don't
think I'd run the engine.

> 7) what happens if the flexplate itself really is the problem? Do I just
> stick another stock flexplate in and wait for that to break?

Get a nice SFI Approved flexplate.

> 9) Who has the voodoo matchbox car and keeps doing this? I will beat your
> ass to a pulp you stupid tool.

Poke poke! Owww!

> 10) what about the rear main seal. There was some oil down there but not
> much - I don't know if it really leaking yet or what? I guess if I replace
> the flexplate I need to replace that too?

Replace it anyways. It takes all of 5 minutes to change. If you keep the
underside clean, leaks are much more visible, and easier to ID from where
they came.

Hang in there dude.

A.

From jhogan@fbody.com  Fri Apr 19 17:57:17 2002
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Subject: Re: [ma] this stinks - something is broken already
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From: "Alex A" 
To: 
Subject: Re: [ma] this stinks - something is broken already
> Unbolt the TC and see if it vibrates. If it does, the TC or tranny is
> screwed. Don't get to rev happy with the engine not loaded. ;)
> -Alex

You mean completely disconnect the engine from the trans? Can I do that?

I should probably go record the sound since I really can't describe it.

Here are some random thoughts/observations though:

1) I think I've heard this sound before now that I think about. When Wayne
and jody finsihed BATA cam #3, I had a similar noise that was a lifter (or
so we thought, maybe I've had this problem since then? the car never did run
right, maybe the 4l60Pos was never even really broken at all?) SO I thought,
maybe a lifter, the car did sit for a LONG time. BUT it wouldn't make too
much sense since I have plenty of oil pressure ANd in fact the noise gets
louder as I give it rpms. Even though, the sound is the same, I for now
think I need to rule out a lifter based on the area the sound seems to be
coming from (either valve body or converter, hard to tell.

2) The flexplates/converter don't wobble as cliff said - in fact, I notice
nothing out of the ordinary there but what do I know

3) I tightened down all of the bolts while the car was on jackstands and
thus interesting angles. Is it possible that when on the ground, something
was different? This almost seems to make some sense because the noise
started as I took it down off of the trailer (on a steep angle) Unless maybe
on that angle I didn't have fluid/pressure to pump and damaged the pump or
something?

4) The LS1 stock converter/flex plate bolts are VERY short. The TH400
converter/flexplate bolts are kind of bigly. Any chance the noise I hear is
just the bolt or nut banging off of the bellhousing or motor as it spins?
This would almost explain the more ticking/rattling/noise (I can't describe
it, sorry) as RPMs increase. Also, this should be easy to check because the
nuts or bolts should be at least a little bit beat by now right? It's too
dark (cloudy or something, about to rain) so I can't see shit under the car
right now.

5) Just pressing the trans-brake buttons makes the noise louder. Is it
possible that I somehow have wires for the trans-brake touching something
else and trying to engage the trans-brake at the wrong times or something? I
know the trans-brake button works because I need to press and hold it in
reverse (as per the TransKing manual) and reverse does work. I also know
that in gear I can hold the t-brake, give it gas and not move. (which could
be lots of fun to play with)

6) MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, its that VSS/reluctor ring in the trans. I hadn't put
many miles/driving on it maybe the few extra running/moving miles somehow
caused the reluctor ring/vss in the 400 (or gv for that matter but the noise
"sounds" like its coing from either the converter or front of the
trans/valve, very hard to tell) to come loose and rattle around inside of
the trans? the speedo seems to work.

AND FINALLY - the mostest strangerest thing. I have some SES lights!
fuel Tank pressure Circuit
Fan Relay Control 2 and 3
(fuel tank pressure one seems to repeat a few times as does the fan relay
control thing)

I also have a "trans temp circuit high voltage" light SO maybe my tranny
tricker isn't working right afterall? OR maybe I fried the electronics in
my little box there or something and the trans is trying to make the motor
do something it doesn't want to be doing because the motor thinks its in
some other gear?

I don't know, I really have no friggen idea about anything at this point.
I've got thunder/rain and am filthy and stink and I'm hungry too so for at
least the rest of today, I think I don't even care.

but, what's interesting about mentioning the converter is that another guy
from my local NJ list sent a similar email:
================= Begin ======================
My first though would be the convertor.  We had to pull my friends trans out
at least 3 times because the convertor would not fully engage on the snout.
Felt like it was in right, but every time we fired the motor the thing would
make horrible sounds.  Sent it back to ATI and they sent another that worked
fine.
To be safe I would pull the trans pan and make sure there are no shaving in
it.
I won't think you did any damage to the engine or trans with the little
amount of time you ran it.
================= End ======================

SO again, sounds reasonable, the noise does come from that area, BUT it
didn't make this noise before today and I drove a what I thought was enough
to test it. In fact, I drove it more the other day than I did this am.

UNLESS, maybe because I had the exhaust cut off at the y-pipe and spitting
out hot exhaust, maybe I cooked something in the 400 or gv or something? It
wasn't on very long at all (again, it was on longer and moving longer the
other day when I drove it no problems)

As Geroge would say, "Are we having fun yet?" NO! :-)

- Jim "I'd have more fun bobbing for apples in a bucket of aids" Hogan
http://jim.fbody.com/ - 98 Navy Blue Really BATA
P.S.  - Norton reference in sig, always funny :-)